Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Chris Coulter, thank you so much for joining me from Ontario. You’re out of Toronto. How are you?
Chris Coulter:
Hey, Suzanne, how are you? I’m good, thank you.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
This is a meaningful conversation because you and I connected a couple of months ago on a video call and I’ve
been following your work. I want to talk to you today about navigating mental health challenges with our loved
ones. For you it was Maddie, which we’re going to get into. I feel that there’s such a gap in how we navigate
these challenges, and I feel that you’ve become an expert.
Chris Coulter:
Well, when you’re put into a situation, you put on your survivor skills and you learn very quickly.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Tell me about yourself. You can start with family or work.
Chris Coulter:
There’s a very distinct path. In 2008, I had a successful business with a partner and we ended up getting hit
hard by the financial crisis. We hung on for a couple of years, burning through all the retained earnings and
cash we had. In February of 2010 we decided to shut it down. I had 20 years of sweat equity and walked away
with nothing. I was disenchanted with the office furniture business and decided to make a complete career
change.
After that, I went through a nasty divorce, then tried to start my own business again. It became a very
emotionally draining time. I think it also contributed significantly to the loss of my 14-year-old daughter Maddie
to suicide. It’s been a difficult last 15 years.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I’ve always wondered about the connection between difficult divorces and what happens with children. I’ve seen
this as a teacher. It’s such a complex issue.
Chris Coulter:
It’s unfortunate when parents can’t stay above everything else for the sake of their kids. It gets nasty, personal,
and ugly. No one wins except the person with the deeper pockets and the lawyers. Divorce decimates families,
and it particularly affects kids because it’s often their first exposure to grief, and they haven’t been taught how to
grieve. They’ve got all this pent-up emotion and don’t know how to deal with it.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I’ve seen this as a teacher. The deep rage between parents, what comes into the classroom. It’s a whole other
discussion. Such a complex issue.
Chris Coulter:
It’s frightening how emotionally complex it is. I’ve been able to reconcile a lot of things in my life. That’s the one
thing I haven’t been able to.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Let’s talk about Maddie. Your daughter died in April 2015. She drives what you’re doing now. What do you want
to tell me about her?
Chris Coulter:
Maddie was my firstborn. She was the first girl in our family for a few generations, so she was revered by
grandparents. She was really smart and super funny. She had this guttural laugh that I still think about. I
remember being stopped in my tracks by a complete stranger who had a laugh identical to hers, and it literally
turned my stomach.
She was phenomenal. Super kind. That was probably her most redeeming quality. She wasn’t one of those
mean girls conforming to popular opinion. She had very distinct values and she stood up to bullies, not on her
own behalf because she was popular, but on behalf of kids who couldn’t stand up for themselves. When she
passed, I received so many notes and stories about acts of kindness she had shown people. She is my
motivation for all the work I do.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I want to get into the work you’re doing, but first I want to talk about the glimpses of what was happening with
her and what we can learn from that. What were the signs of her challenges that led up to the suicide?
Chris Coulter:
The biggest contributor, I believe, was the divorce and how she was brought into it as a pawn. It put her in an
impossible situation. She told me, "I feel like I’ve been put in an impossible situation." Changing schools,
moving, all of it just weighs on a kid, especially when they don’t know how to process emotions. There were a
lot of contributing factors that probably were never properly processed, and it developed into terrible
depression.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
So it was the depression that was the trajectory. What did you need at the time, either for support or
information?
Chris Coulter:
We leaned on the hospital system because that was really the only place for acute care. It’s intended for acute
purposes only, but because Maddie was so loved in the psychiatric unit, they let her extend her stay. The first
time was 10 days and the second time was almost two months. The challenge was finding intermediary care
after the hospital. There isn’t a lot of it. Private treatment exists if you have the means, but a lot of those options
in Canada are drug and addiction related, not depression related. The biggest challenge we experienced was
finding somewhere after the hospital to help a child who was clearly struggling.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I had a similar realisation when I interviewed a dialectical behaviour therapy clinician. In BC, the recommended
ratio is one counsellour to 250 students. We’re at over 900 in this province. Schools refer students out, but the
agencies they refer to are public, and it’s the newest practitioners working there because experienced clinicians
go into private practice where they earn far more. We’re sending struggling kids to the least experienced
practitioners. It’s like sending me to a brand-new cardiac surgeon for a triple bypass – and not just me, but a
hundred of me at the same time.
Chris Coulter:
Everyone’s focus is on remediation. But the challenge shouldn’t be remediation – it should be prevention. We
have the tools and technology to make it happen within school systems and within government. The problem is
there’s no accountability or transparency in the school system regarding mental health. You could be the worst
provider or the best provider and there’s no real distinction between the two.
That’s where I see a huge opportunity to rate schools on their mental health performance, not from the schools’
standpoint but from the students’. Not with the intention of shaming, but of propping up. We want to celebrate
schools doing a great job, and for those lagging behind, we want to use benchmarking to help elevate them.
If we’re waiting for the government or school boards to do something, it’s never going to happen. Everyone
promises mental health dollars, especially during election cycles, but there’s never a real plan.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
You’ve just answered one of my questions, which was: what do you see as broken in our system?
Chris Coulter:
I don’t think it’s entirely the school system. I think it’s our inability to teach emotional intelligence. I’m not pushing
this entirely on schools because schools aren’t ultimately responsible for our kids – parents have to own this too.
The problem with parenting today is that we’re relying on the way we were raised: consequences, reprimands,
rules, a tight ship. Parenting today has to be a lot more collaborative. At the end of the day parents are still in
charge, but there’s a long way we need to come.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I agree parents are first. But from kindergarten to grade 12, Canadian kids spend 15,000 hours in schools.
Whether we like it or not, mental health is right in front of educators. These kids are sometimes at school more
than at home.
Chris Coulter:
It’s not just in schools and classrooms either. It can be in play, where you learn about empathy and conflict
resolution. There are lots of opportunities for that, especially at a young age.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I was supposed to present at a nearby school district on understanding youth mental health – drawn from my
PhD research and my time at a psych unit. They cancelled because teachers hadn’t signed up. Districts around
me are choosing to focus on AI. I understand they’re dealing with a lot, but I argue mental health has to be the
priority. We’re at a critical time.
Chris Coulter:
Can I talk about the backstory of our program, MindGrade?
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
That’s actually my next question. You’re holding schools accountable for supporting students’ mental health and
giving youth a voice in creating real change. Tell me about it.
Chris Coulter:
After Maddie’s death it took a long time to even be able to have a conversation. I did a lot of writing for those
first five or six years. Eventually someone approached me about getting involved with a social emotional
learning program called How Are You Feeling? It taught kids how to identify, understand, and process their
emotions in a way that was fun and user friendly. They used clips from TV and movies to depict emotions so
kids could relate.
It was a 24-episode, 12-hour commitment that we moderated. One group we ran it with was eight girls from a
prestigious private school in Toronto, ranging from about 14 to 17 years old. After the last session, they said
this program changed their lives. When a teenage girl tells you that, you sit up and pay attention. They wanted
to advocate for the program, so I told them to go talk to their principal and wellness counsellours.
The interesting thing is that 95% of kids who participated in the program said the mental health support they
received in school was completely inadequate. So these girls went to their wellness counsellour and
administrator and said the program changed their lives. The response was: "We already have our own
programs." They shut it down entirely.
I was livid. So I went to friends in market research and media and said I want to flip the script. I want
accountability and transparency on mental health programs in schools, and I want that to come from the
students themselves. That’s MindGrade. We’re designing a tool that arrives at a score taken by the kids,
determining whether a school is doing really well, needs improvement, or is failing. We’re starting in the Toronto
area and plan to extend it across Canada.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
What do you do with that information?
Chris Coulter:
We use it to arrive at the grade. We give schools a summary of what the kids are saying and areas that need to
be addressed. Then we can connect them with programs or educational consultants who can help. We’re going
to have a grade for mental health and emotional health, because emotions – grief, those kinds – are rarely talked
about in schools the way they should be.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
In my opinion, parents are the number one asset. Everything parents have driven, I’ve seen reflected in
education since I started teaching in 1996. Right now, what I see parents caring about most where I live is
academics. That’s driving policy. But you can’t have sustained academic achievement without emotional
awareness and support.
I went into social media to reach educators. I have presentations built from what kids say they need for mental
health and wellness. We know that when kids feel connected and supported, understood and cared for,
academics improve. Yet school districts around me are choosing to learn artificial intelligence over learning how
to connect with students. I’m sorely disappointed with what I’ve experienced in the year and a half since my
PhD research launched. Shockingly so.
Chris Coulter:
They don’t understand that academic pressure will come with emotional consequences. If the kid doesn’t get
into the school they’re pushed toward, how devastated will they be? Pushing emotions down means they need
somewhere to go.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
There’s research on this. A researcher at York University found that a third of young people do not feel
connected to anyone in their community. A third.
Chris Coulter:
That resonates. IMI Research, the company I work with, has been asking the human connection question since
2016. They asked how many friends people have: one, three, five or more. Someone eventually said, why not
ask about zero? The answer was over 30% – consistently, for eight years. Not a post-COVID spike. Thirty
percent of young people feel they have no one, friend or family, they can talk to.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
That outlines the problem clearly. We need parents on board pushing schools to emphasise mental health and
wellness. But if a third are already disconnected, that shows where we’re starting from.
So you have MindGrade for accountability. And you also have MentorWell, which is mentoring for teenagers?
Chris Coulter:
Yes. MentorWell is an online mentoring service. It’s not for kids who are depressed or have clinical disorders –
it’s for kids who feel a little lost, who lack confidence and direction. The emphasis is on emotional intelligence:
how to emotionally regulate, how to deal with conflict resolution, how to communicate with empathy. Research
suggests emotional intelligence is a larger driving factor in success than IQ, and it’s something you can
increase over time.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
What else do we need to be doing in our society with mental health? Because this isn’t only about teenagers –
adults are struggling too. What needs to happen in this broken system?
Chris Coulter:
From a remediation perspective, we all know wait times are too long and resources are limited. I think one thing
that could make a real difference is parents doing a much better job of listening and not interrogating. Parents
think that by forcing their kids to talk, they’ll get the truth. What actually needs to happen is for parents to learn
to be quiet and let their child talk when they’re ready. Don’t force it.
Once someone starts talking and you jump all over them, they shut down. If parents did a better job of listening,
stopped trying to fix everything, and became more approachable and relatable, their kids would open up. I know
it sounds simple. Everyone thinks they already have a good relationship with their kid. But how many parents
jump into fix-it mode the moment they get an opening? My relationship with my boys really changed when I
stopped being in their faces all the time and just let conversations happen naturally. The honesty came, and so
did the trust.
Parents say, "My kids trust me." But they don’t trust you as much as you think they do. That’s a hard truth.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Part of the problem is that parents are busy, and society tells us we can have it all: the career, the family,
everything. That rhetoric has parents busier than ever, and they get sidetracked.
Chris Coulter:
Parents have to make it a priority. We gave parents access to the How Are You Feeling program so they could
watch it alongside their kids and understand their emotional world better. Less than 5% took us up on the offer.
Parents can point the finger at schools, but they have to own it too.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
That aligns with what I see. Teachers need to step up and learn what’s going on with students. We have kids
coming to school who are self-harming and teachers don’t know it. We’re at a critical moment.
What I used to tell parents on the side was: go do what your kid wants to do. Go to their level. Take them for a
burger or a movie, whatever it is. When I did that with my own kids, they opened right up. That’s when
connection happens. That’s authentic listening. Car rides, I know, right?
Chris Coulter:
Car rides, coffees. With Maddie it was watching old movies – that was our time together. With my boys it was
driving to and from hockey. I made a point of never talking about hockey on those drives.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Really? So what happened?
Chris Coulter:
It was their time to talk about whatever they wanted.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
That’s so good. Okay, I always finish with three wrap-up questions. Here’s the first. When Maddie was
struggling, from the beginning to the end, what is the single piece of information you needed most?
Chris Coulter:
Being more aware of the signs she was showing. We didn’t pick up on things like "I’m tired" or spending more
time in her room, and instead justified it as just teenager stuff. You have to take action. And if you’re not
listening, what I eventually learned was to sometimes just ask: can I come hang out in your bedroom? That’s
one way they eventually start talking. That’s where trust, or reforming of trust, starts to happen.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I had a similar realisation in a conversation with David and Laura Donovan. Their daughter Felicity was in her
room a lot. Her father said he was in his room when he was a teenager too – he was fine. The difference is that
now when your child is in their room, they have the entire world in front of them on a screen: everything they are
not, the "never enough" of social media, and access to things we never had. Parents can’t use their own frame
of reference from the 1980s. The world has changed. We got through partying. Now there’s fentanyl. It’s just a
different world.
Chris Coulter:
Absolutely.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Okay, question two. Right now, for parents who are struggling, what’s the critical piece of knowledge you’d want
them to have?
Chris Coulter:
Build your kid’s trust and don’t take it for granted. When you ask how they’re doing, ask how they’re really doing
and don’t accept "fine" as an answer. Dig in. Take the time. They don’t want to open up easily, but they do want
to share. They’re confused too. They just want a safe space to say something without fear of being shut down.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
They also want to be pursued. That came out in my research shockingly clearly. They want us to lean in a little:
"I’d love to hang out with you," or "Can I just sit with you?" Don’t just accept the fine. Push a little, because
pursuing your child’s wellness means you’re leaning in.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Last question, Chris. For parents and everyone struggling with loved ones who have mental health challenges:
where is the hope?
Chris Coulter:
I think there are a lot of impassioned parents and charities. A lot of people recognise we’re in a crisis and we
can’t wait for the government or school boards to address it. It has to be individuals stepping up. I’m seeing
positive signs I haven’t seen in a while. There’s still a lot of uncertainty in the world, but there’s a different
energy right now.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
You’re part of a very painful club of people who have been set into action by the loss of a loved one. It’s a gross
club to be in, but you are changing things.
Chris Coulter:
Maddie is my guiding light.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
From a parent to another, it’s just wrong that we’re on this stage together, that I’m interviewing you about what
you’ve been through. But what I’ve seen in you is that you’ve done something beautiful with it. What you’re
doing to bring hope and support is enormous.
I had hundreds of kids come through a youth psychiatric unit over five and a half years. The common
denominator, every single time, was a lack of connection. That was it. So the hope is that it’s actually not that
hard. Connecting with your kids, leaning in, authentically listening, and accessing support where you can.
That’s the hope.
Chris Coulter:
And here’s the reality: most kids make it through the teenage years. There’s an isolated but alarming number
who don’t. But once a kid finds their path, their confidence, their sense of themselves, things change. I’m at that
place now with my eldest son, and my youngest will get there too. It’s hard to imagine what we went through
with Maddie and where the boys are now relative to where they could have gone.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Where can people find you online?
Chris Coulter:
They can find me on LinkedIn. The Finish Line Group is the name of my business. I’m in the midst of reworking
the direction of it to tie in with my other projects. Through The Finish Line Group there are opportunities to reach
out and connect. I’m happy to help guide families so they don’t experience the loss ours has gone through.
Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I’ll put that in the show notes. Thank you, Chris, so much for your time.
