Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Good afternoon, Cea Sunrise Person. Thank you for joining me again. This is our third interview. I want to talk to you about a different topic today about the facade that happens in kids, this idea of kids putting on a facade and mask about what’s going on at home when they’re at school or outside of the house, and you are the perfect person to talk to.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Hi Suzanne, how are you?

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Okay, thank you. You’re always ready for anything. I love your poster there of North of Normal. So you wrote North of Normal, you wrote Nearly Normal. You just told me you’re doing screenplays, and I want you again now in this next podcast to tell me the important relevant parts of your upbringing. I mean everybody could watch the movie North of Normal, but let’s hear it from you.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Thank you. Well, very briefly, I was born in 1969 and my family was very much into the counterculture and wanted to live off the grid. So my mom, who was 16 when she had me, basically took me with her, and her parents, my grandparents, to live in the wilderness, in teepees basically, hunting and gathering for our survival and living under canvas, a very off the grid existence. We lived like that on and off for the first 10 years of my life, and in the meantime my mom was looking for love in all the wrong places, so there were a lot of adventures that went on with that. Then after we moved to the city when I was 13, I embarked on a modelling career in Europe. So I kind of went from this crazy wilderness to a different kind of jungle, I guess.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
That’s a jungle in Europe. You also are writing screenplays now.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yes.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
And what I love about you is that you are absolutely proud to say you will not hike in the mountains here. I love it, right? Makes so much sense with your upbringing in the wilderness. You will not go in our North Shore mountains.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yeah, it’s not really my thing. I hate camping. I hate hiking. Oh my god, I hate it. I don’t know, maybe I had too much of all that when I was young.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Well, I love that you’re proud of that because we are a hiking community here, right? And I just think it’s so great to be so honest.

Cea Sunrise Person:
I wish actually that I enjoyed it, quite honestly. I just had to accept that about myself because I tried really, really hard to like anything outdoorsy and I just don’t.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
We’re in our 50s, you don’t have to. Can you tell me, I’ve never asked you this, can you tell me what the word normal means to you? It’s in both of your books, North of Normal and Nearly Normal. But what does that word mean for you?

Cea Sunrise Person:
Hmm, I haven’t thought about that in a while. I guess to me it would mean, everyone has their own personal normal and I wouldn’t expect it to be anywhere near the same for anybody. But for me I think it feels like living in a peaceful place where I am living the way that I want to, and not feeling like I have to pretend or be anything that I’m not, that I can just be myself.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I like the word peaceful. I hadn’t considered that part of it, but it makes sense because you are then not in turmoil.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yes, for sure. I think I’ve spent most of my life in turmoil. I think a lot of us do. And there have been more moments of normal in my life than long stretches.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
You had said to me that you had gone to school for normal, that you wanted desperately to have normal at school, so much that you’re in my thesis about having that at school, being able to be your normal, and putting on this facade, and how easy it is to hide behind the beauty that you have, and everybody thought you were okay. So can you tell me, what was school for you in the midst of all of your home turmoil?

Cea Sunrise Person:
It sort of varied. I went to quite a few different schools and I was often the new girl. And so I would say that a lot of the time school did feel kind of threatening to me because I knew it was the place where I had to go and try to be like everybody else, and I was so different from everyone else, and I did not want any of that to be exposed. I also started school a year late, I guess, and I felt like I wasn’t academically quite caught up with a lot of my peers because I was kind of in and out of school a lot. So I would say my early years were very difficult that way, and I was really trying to fit in, and the way that I tried to fit in was by just kind of fading into the background. But later, as I got a little bit more stability in my life, I would say that school became more of a stability thing for me, something that I could go to every day and it was predictable, unlike my home life, especially after I made a lot of friends, but making friends was always very challenging for me in my early years.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Let’s talk about that moving around. Do you have your best story of hiding the turmoil at home? And we’re talking, you had a lot of neglect particularly.

Cea Sunrise Person:
I was in grade seven or eight and we were in social studies class, we were talking about economics, and the teacher, teaching was so different back then, teachers would just ask personal questions. And so he was like, put your hands up if you’re low income, put your hands up if you’re middle class, put your hands up if you’re upper class, whatever, we were supposed to be rating ourselves by whatever our financial situation at home was. So I kind of looked around and then I put my hand up for middle class.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
What? Really? Wow.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Which was completely, it was what I wanted to be, of course, we were trying to live on like $20 a week of grocery money, it was just…

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Wow, yeah. And your friends didn’t know, right?

Cea Sunrise Person:
Well, some did, because I did have a couple of close friends that I would have over, and so they got to know my mom and my home situation, and so I did have a couple of friends who knew, and they were in similar situations to me, if not the family dynamic as much, but…

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
We’ve talked about this before, of you falling under the radar. And I think it’s so powerful for anybody that works with kids to understand that kids want to be normal and hide. I found that the kids at my psych unit, the ones that had the most trauma were the ones that were the best in school, because they wanted to go to school and that was their safe place.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yeah.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
So did you put any facade on at home with your parents in terms of how you were feeling or responding?

Cea Sunrise Person:
No, I mean it was just my mom and I, and I feel like I was probably myself with her, and would be angry or frustrated because of something that was going on with her. There would be a lot of tension and friction between us for sure. I would say that people probably wouldn’t recognize me at home because that’s where I let a lot of my anger come out.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
When did your facade to the outside world crack? Because it obviously did. You’ve written two books about your upbringing.

Cea Sunrise Person:
I don’t know, probably around the time that my books came out, and you can’t write two memoirs and not have people know the truth about you.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
And you had said it was your process to write in the writing, wasn’t it? You worked through all of this stuff in your writing.

Cea Sunrise Person:
I would say especially with my second book, I worked through the things that I had really not faced. The stuff that was in my first book was just kind of all the crazy stories of my life that had always been there.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
So part of my goal here is to look at indicators that somebody is pretending or things aren’t well at home. And so the question is, what is the difference, do you think, between a child who’s genuinely thriving and things are good at home, and one who’s just really good at performing that to the outside?

Cea Sunrise Person:
Most of the kids that are really having problems at home, you’re gonna see it in their behaviour at school.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Now I want to shift into home and what parents can do. So you have kids, how do you create a home now? And I know that you’re flipping the switch from your upbringing. How do you create a home where your kids don’t need to have any errors or facades or behave differently than how they’re really feeling on the inside at home?

Cea Sunrise Person:
For me it’s just all about being there for them. Everyone’s gonna go through stuff, kids go through stuff, you can’t stop that from happening. We all try to as parents, but the point is that no matter what they’re going through, as long as you are the solid one that stays there for them, not afraid to go through that stuff with them, then they’ll be okay. And I really believe that.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Well, and what you said to me when you and I did the podcast about healing from trauma, and I asked you how do you know that you’re healed, it really stuck with me, Cea, that you said you’re healed if you can put yourself first sometimes, because your kids are your number one. You’ve done the exact opposite of your mother, you’ve been very present for your kids.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yes, definitely. And I’ve definitely put myself last, and a lot of that is just something that you naturally do as a mother. But I sort of let it go to the extreme, I think, just because of the way I was raised, and I just wanted to be 100 percent certain that I didn’t repeat any of the mistakes that my mother had made. And then I really spent a long part of my parenting career never being able to put myself first, not even thinking of myself. And that’s not the best thing in the world either for them.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Well, you’ve been there.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yeah, I have.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
It’s Gabor Mate that talks about trauma, and he said it’s not what actually happened to you, it’s how you process it after the fact. And that’s exactly what you’ve just said, right, of having people with you. If parents are on the home front and things have gone on, just being present and not perfect, and able to walk through that when it’s easier to maybe go hide in your office and close the door.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Exactly. And I think that’s what a lot of our parents’ generation did. They would send kids to their rooms or leave the room themselves and just let the child deal with it themselves. And I think that’s actually what has caused a lot of problems.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Has it been hard for you, I’m just curious, when your kids go through their own stuff, does that bring up all of this childhood experience for you when you’re with them and you sit with them?

Cea Sunrise Person:
No, no, it’s just so different. My kids had a different childhood than I did, and everything about it is so different.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Right. Your kids have a very different childhood than you did, I can attest to that. I know I’ve asked you this before, I just want to go back to this because I think this is a powerful question for the adults that work with kids. What did you need those other adults to know about you, even though they didn’t know? In a perfect world, is there one thing, teachers, coaches, or any outside adults?

Cea Sunrise Person:
I don’t think that there was anything in particular I needed anyone to say. I think it was just more of making school a welcoming place. I got that from a lot of my teachers.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
This strikes me again and again, how we do not know what happens in homes, and that we would be gobsmacked if we did know what happens in some homes. So you never assume, and even if somebody’s won the genetic jackpot even more, you never assume, because what’s happening behind closed doors can be very well hidden.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yeah, I agree.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I’ve said I think that now teenagers are the masters of the facade because they learn it every single day on social media.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yes, that is absolutely true. The branding on social media, how you’re supposed to look, how you present yourself, how you talk, what you relay or not, they unknowingly learn every single day how to put on a facade. You’re doing great, you got the great life, you went out on Friday night, here’s your party. And then we lose all the authenticity.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
It’s terrifying to me what’s happening to the younger generations, right, the research, there’s no surprises there. I don’t see how it can’t continue to get worse and worse.

Cea Sunrise Person:
So we gotta call it, we gotta call it. They’re more disconnected than ever. I think that there’s more of a facade than ever before. I think there’s more of a need for that support, understanding and care, and yet we don’t see it, or don’t call it, or name it, or really tackle it.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
I know, it’s very hard to put the toothpaste back into the tube.

Cea Sunrise Person:
I know, right. However, I will say I’m doing a presentation on Friday about this. We did it with cigarettes, we did the cigarette revolution. There’s no more smoking on airplanes, there’s no more smoking in hospitals. In 2008 was the BC Tobacco Act, and guess what, you weren’t even allowed a designated area anymore. People freaked out, and somehow, the research says we adjusted faster than people thought. We did it with cigarettes.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Right. Huh, yeah, yeah. I would love to see it, but then again, I’m not going to be the very first to start it either. Okay, I always do three wrap up questions, as you well know, to take us back to our goals. I want to talk about confronting the facade, and get into warning signs now. We’ve kind of touched upon it, but can you tell me the warning signs that somebody could be hiding? I mean, I’ve asked you the question already if you could see it in others, but are there certain things people say, or behaviours, or mannerisms, that show that maybe things aren’t as good as they’re intended to appear?

Cea Sunrise Person:
I think that people pleasing is a big one, especially for girls, which is tough because girls are trained to please. I think to an extreme degree, that’s probably a warning sign.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Yeah, that’s a good one.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Any sort of indication of not wanting to go home, right? Kids who have parents who never show up.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Right. I want to take part B of that question: if your child tells you that they are fine, how do you know if they actually are?

Cea Sunrise Person:
Well, I think that’s a personal thing between a parent and a child. I can always tell when my kids are fine or not, no matter what they say. I spend a lot of time watching looks on faces, tones of voices change in my kids. For sure, they’re not always willing to share, but I find that giving them some space and approaching later works.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Such a good point. Let’s pause there. You hit it, I think: if they say I’m fine and don’t want to talk, a lot of parents take that as, okay, they’re done, versus coming back to it the next day or the next week. You don’t want to hound them, but usually when they say I’m fine and you know that they’re not, they’re lying.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Right, right. Yeah. But that might not be the right time. I think it’s so important, that idea of, I’m going to come back to you. I always just say, I’m here if you want to talk.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Well, it’s important to understand the teenage brain, the neurology of it, these heightened emotions and negativity bias and elevated responses, they need more time to cool down than I’d like to think that I do. Okay, so we talked about creating a safe space at home. My next wrap-up question is: what can parents and teachers do to build the kind of safety where kids can stop performing, where they know they can be themselves?

Cea Sunrise Person:
I don’t feel like my kids ever feel like they need to perform in front of us, I think most kids let it out with their family. My experience with kids that did have turmoil is some of them, if they knew the parent was gonna get mad, they held it in. Or if they felt judged in the past, then the next situation, they’re holding it in. Unfortunately it only takes a few of those incidents for them to really go into their shell, learn that signal, and stop talking. So I would say, try from the beginning to always let them know that you’re a safe spot.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
The thing I found the most in my research was that it was the judgment that shut everything down. Even a look on the face, or your response, or your tone of voice that you don’t intend, especially if they don’t have a good relationship with the parent. I found that was the number one thing. If you want to shut down your kid, and you don’t want them to talk to you, and you don’t want to hear what’s going on, judging them, not even intentionally, will do the trick.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yeah, oh my gosh, I know. Or offer advice. Offering unsolicited advice is also a mistake. I’ve made that mistake before, and now I’ve learned to ask first. It’s a dance sometimes with the kids. Sometimes I know that my kids want advice, I know that they do, and it depends on the context. Other times, like just this morning with one of them, I just said, I’m so sorry, that sucks, I’m so sorry, that’s heartbreaking. Zero advice.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Last question. So if there is a single thing you would like to penetrate homes with, so that parents can understand how to build that space where their child can be authentic, what’s that single piece of advice?

Cea Sunrise Person:
I think it’s just what we’ve talked about. Just be there for them. You can just be dead silent, think of yourself as a sponge. I think of myself sometimes as absorbing all the bad stuff for them, if I can. And that’s kind of all that you need to do.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Right. Yeah. I love that, the idea of just knocking on a bedroom door and saying, can I come in, and just sitting down, plunking on the floor. That’s exactly what you’re saying, really, you’re just being there, right?

Cea Sunrise Person:
Mm-hmm. Or asking what you want for dinner, or something like that that’s not threatening or challenging at all, and then saying, I’m here to talk if you need to, and then that’s it, and give them their space.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Food gets them every time. Food. I’ve always said if your kid wants to go for a burger, get them bacon and they’ll sing like a bird.

Cea Sunrise Person:
Yeah, the handy one.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Cea Sunrise Person, okay, so your books are on Amazon, North of Normal, Nearly Normal, where else can we find you?

Cea Sunrise Person:
It might still be on Netflix, but I’m not sure.

Dr. Suzanne Simpson:
Thanks for listening. Now you can do your part and share this with a parent who wants to know how to support their child better, who is maybe putting on a facade at school or not authentic at home, and how to create those safe spaces. You can subscribe to this channel and click like on that little link below. Leave any comment, I will respond to all, and I will see you next time.